Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

For anything related to RPG rules from the Anima Beyond Fantasy books.
Terror El
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Registrado: 25 Abr 2018 03:43

Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Terror El » 20 May 2018 05:34

Combat rules.

My last game we had 3 new players and 3 veterans. Thing is the veteran group altered some rules slightly or used optional that we thought made some things smoother. That was explained to the new players and that we would work on them as we progress and help them along. I am sure we will spend the next week or two reading over it and then everyone will come in and still not wholly agrre on interpretation. So help me out if you could be so kind.

1) Action points: How do they work with attacks. Before We pretty much just gave everyone 2 attacks, the first one normal, the second one at -25 (unless ambidex or Lajatang with Tai chi), and the guy with Tai chi also had TKD so he got a 3rd attack at -30, kick. That was it period. No use of action points based on dex and agility. Now, this time around there is high enough dex/agi to yield 4 action. SO that person would do 1 , then another with lajatang -15, then a 3rd lajatang -40(ithink), then a kick at -30 for TKD. Now for people with only 2 or 3 actions, that is not great for them. One brings up he thought extra attacks was based off having attack over 100. There is something in the book about that, but it was interpreted that an attack is an action, you can attack up to your number of actions with penalties, then it was mentioned if each action is a separate attack then technically an attack over 100 could be split per attack, technically granting 8 attacks to a person with 4 action and over 100%. This has caused some grievance and discussion in the group. The way it was before at least worked, wrong or not, but now as we try to grow more into the game and incorporate more rules it is becoming an issue. It is mainly, it was a rule we knew we were a little off on but like, and one of the newer guys was confused as he is a rules nazi and had the book down. (Positive light here, no negative) ;)

2) This time the Tao invested in more martial arts and ki after looking at so many sample build and templets provided this community. As his first Tao was made for him by the GM (who was brand new to the game). The 1st incarnation of the Tao had HIGH physical skills, NO Ki abilities (none till rank 3), and only basic Tai chi and basic TKD for the kick. 75 attack and dodge. He used the lajatang with his Tai Chi to get discount to second attack. Now the new Tao has limited Ki but many more martial arts. Tai Chi is one of them so is TKD. He still uses the lajatang
He is wanting to alter his attack to energy or air at times,plus add +10 for Dumah . The argement is he can ONLY use Tai Chi to use the Lajatang. ANd nothing else. When read the section on page 29 dominus exxet "Culminating Martial Art", it explained that one can pick and choose what they like. The next paragraph reiterates starting off with "Remember" basically you do not have to use one form or the other, that you create your own martial art from all the learned styles. The argument for this was Tai Chi IS part of the martial art and the weapon can still be used no matter what pros and cons the Tao has chosen. The other side of the argument is a vague "you are reading to much into those paragraphs, that isn't how it works".

Solving this should help the group leaps and bounds. Although our Weapons Master is having issues. He is Ja'yan, big and strong, but -30 initiative with his axe and shield. His points are pretty easy to spend. He bought the Barbarian module and the area attack module. He is so slow he always loses his action, He isn't hitting as often and not that well, his damage is often severely cramped by high defense and/or high armor. He is disheartened. Any advice?

Super thanks in advance to anyone who decides to at least read this, moreso, for any thoughts.

~Terror_El
Banthor
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Registrado: 07 Feb 2017 23:13

Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Banthor » 20 May 2018 07:15

Terror El escribió:
20 May 2018 05:34
Combat rules.

My last game we had 3 new players and 3 veterans. Thing is the veteran group altered some rules slightly or used optional that we thought made some things smoother. That was explained to the new players and that we would work on them as we progress and help them along. I am sure we will spend the next week or two reading over it and then everyone will come in and still not wholly agrre on interpretation. So help me out if you could be so kind.

1) Action points: How do they work with attacks. Before We pretty much just gave everyone 2 attacks, the first one normal, the second one at -25 (unless ambidex or Lajatang with Tai chi), and the guy with Tai chi also had TKD so he got a 3rd attack at -30, kick. That was it period. No use of action points based on dex and agility. Now, this time around there is high enough dex/agi to yield 4 action. SO that person would do 1 , then another with lajatang -15, then a 3rd lajatang -40(ithink), then a kick at -30 for TKD. Now for people with only 2 or 3 actions, that is not great for them. One brings up he thought extra attacks was based off having attack over 100. There is something in the book about that, but it was interpreted that an attack is an action, you can attack up to your number of actions with penalties, then it was mentioned if each action is a separate attack then technically an attack over 100 could be split per attack, technically granting 8 attacks to a person with 4 action and over 100%. This has caused some grievance and discussion in the group. The way it was before at least worked, wrong or not, but now as we try to grow more into the game and incorporate more rules it is becoming an issue. It is mainly, it was a rule we knew we were a little off on but like, and one of the newer guys was confused as he is a rules nazi and had the book down. (Positive light here, no negative) ;)

2) This time the Tao invested in more martial arts and ki after looking at so many sample build and templets provided this community. As his first Tao was made for him by the GM (who was brand new to the game). The 1st incarnation of the Tao had HIGH physical skills, NO Ki abilities (none till rank 3), and only basic Tai chi and basic TKD for the kick. 75 attack and dodge. He used the lajatang with his Tai Chi to get discount to second attack. Now the new Tao has limited Ki but many more martial arts. Tai Chi is one of them so is TKD. He still uses the lajatang
He is wanting to alter his attack to energy or air at times,plus add +10 for Dumah . The argement is he can ONLY use Tai Chi to use the Lajatang. ANd nothing else. When read the section on page 29 dominus exxet "Culminating Martial Art", it explained that one can pick and choose what they like. The next paragraph reiterates starting off with "Remember" basically you do not have to use one form or the other, that you create your own martial art from all the learned styles. The argument for this was Tai Chi IS part of the martial art and the weapon can still be used no matter what pros and cons the Tao has chosen. The other side of the argument is a vague "you are reading to much into those paragraphs, that isn't how it works".

Solving this should help the group leaps and bounds. Although our Weapons Master is having issues. He is Ja'yan, big and strong, but -30 initiative with his axe and shield. His points are pretty easy to spend. He bought the Barbarian module and the area attack module. He is so slow he always loses his action, He isn't hitting as often and not that well, his damage is often severely cramped by high defense and/or high armor. He is disheartened. Any advice?

Super thanks in advance to anyone who decides to at least read this, moreso, for any thoughts.

~Terror_El
I'm going to go by how I normally handle these rules.

1) You can only make ONE active action in a combat turn without penalty. Also you can only choose to take an attack action once. However, higher attack ability affords the player the ability to "split the effort". This means they take a penalty to their attack value to break it up into a combination of attacks (ex. Someone with 100 attack could do 2 attacks at 75). This value amount to -25 attack value across all attacks for each attack beyond the first. An additional attack from "split effort" is given for every 100 attack the player has. Certain other things grant unique extra attacks that have their own penalties such as dual wielding and Taekwondo.

Now there is a thing I do to avoid unnecessary bookkeeping with how this works with counterattacks which is if they didn't use up all their potential attacks I allow the counter without penalty. Otherwise the GM and/or players get shouldered with the burden of having to constantly declare the number of attacks they're using and withholding and tracking penalties, its a bit of a mess in that regard.

2) I'm not clear on what you're saying is going on here. Taos can get special weapon modules for weapons related to a martial art they know (usually at a discount). The main thing to remember is that only bonuses (attack, block, dodge) get applied to the weapon and no other effects apply, so no kicks or special effects. Think of "Martial Arts" as collectively its own customizable weapon, and the player can either wield a different weapon or Martial arts, but not both (at best getting minor combat bonuses).

3) The thing about weapon masters is abusing special purpose attacks and defenses. A player can decide to NOT block or dodge, but instead just brace themselves using Absorb Hits cutting their block and dodge in half, allowing them to not lose their chance to act when they take a hit. With high AT, defense, and hitpoints weapon masters can abuse the hell out of this. Note that critical hits will still prevent the player from acting.

Pushing Weapon Speed is also a thing. It allows a player to take the strength bonus they apply to their weapon and instead place some or all of it into the weapons initiative making them faster.

Anticipate Surprise reduces defense by -40, but prevents being surprised due to 150 initiative difference.

Arguably, someone with a shield can also block for another player who is adjacent (cover) if they declare it when they have initiative although its not very good without the Guardian ars magnus which allows them to do it outside of their turn (also Bodyguard Module). I believe this also counts as an active action so keep that in mind as well in its basic form.

Edit: More stuff that might be helpful. With high Strength characteristic, checks that use it like Trapping, Disarm, and Take Down would be useful. In fact, these mostly ignore AT (treated as 0) and put the opponent in bad tactical situations, usually resulting in penalties for them or attack bonuses for the players. Shield can double as an second attack that does impact so doing a Knock Out attempt has no penalty other than the penalty applied from the directed attack itself.
Última edición por Banthor el 20 May 2018 17:39, editado 1 vez en total.
Gaia Volume 2 translation progress report : It's done. Want to cry in a blanket burrito now.
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Tyr Hawk
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Tyr Hawk » 20 May 2018 17:32

Banthor escribió:
20 May 2018 07:15
3) The thing about weapon masters is abusing special purpose attacks and defenses. A player can decide to NOT block or dodge, but instead just brace themselves using Absorb Hits cutting their block and dodge in half, allowing them to not lose their chance to act when they take a hit. With high AT, defense, and hitpoints weapon masters can abuse the hell out of this. Note that critical hits will still prevent the player from acting.
That penalty has been changed to a flat -80 instead of cutting in half. Worse at lower levels, better at higher ones, but there it is.

As to the other two issues, Banthor hits it right on the head with number two. It's not that you can only use it with Tai Chi, but rather that you only get the bonuses from the listed martial art you bought the module for. You know how to use the weapon in a way that gives you the bonuses (not the advantages) from Tai Chi. A particularly kind GM might give you the bonuses from all of your martial arts, but, alas, you can't count on something like that. Is it frustrating? Probably, but holding a weapon in your hands changes a lot about what you can do as a fighter. I only took a few semesters of a few different martial arts, but everything I know (the basics of those forms) would be mostly invalidated holding a weapon of any kind, or the advantages of the weapon itself would be invalidated if I didn't adjust what I was doing. Adding a weapon into a style where it doesn't really fit doesn't make much sense either. If you have a lot of rapid-fire punches and kicks, the two-handed axe seems like it would be an inappropriate fit for that kind of style.

But, again, if it means that much to you then you can alter some tables, or give them the bonuses (not the advantages) from all their arts at once for buying the module. Weapon modules are a pain anyways.

As for number one, I'll admit that I've never run into the issue of, apparently, people either not understanding or needing to drastically change the action rules. Banthor has some of it down, but reading his explanation even I feel a bit confused by it, so here's a few relevant passages and the breakdown.
English Core page 79 escribió: During a Combat Turn, a character can normally perform only a single Active Action. If he wishes to try to execute further actions, he suffers an
accumulating penalty of –25 to the abilities used. For example, if someone wishes to run at his full Movement Value at an enemy, attack that enemy, and then use the Search Secondary Ability to scan the area for hidden enemies, he would run without penalty, make the attack with a –25 penalty, and try the Search at a –50 penalty.
In short, as Banthor said, your first action is done at full, your second is done at -25, your third at -50, etc. You have a limited number of actions...
English Core 79 escribió: If a player wants his character to perform multiple Active Actions in a Combat Turn, he must declare the exact number of those actions before the start of the Combat Turn. Note also that a character can normally perform each type of Active Action only once per Combat Turn.
So, you can move up to your maximum distance once. You can search once. You can sleight of hand once. This isn't entirely clear at this point, but you can also only make one attack "action" per turn.

Wait, what?

So, that's not entirely true, but it also is. All of your attacks only take a single action. You can make multiple attacks, but you can't make multiple attack actions. In short, you couldn't attack, move, then attack. That's out of line (officially speaking). You could attack, attack, move though, because you can do multiple attacks.
English Core 84 escribió: In principle, a combatant can only make one Active Action per Combat Turn, as that would use up the allotted time. However, characters with sufficient ability can make one additional attack for each 100 points of Final Attack they possess. Of course, by splitting his efforts, an attacker does not make his attacks with the same care, therefore suffering a –25 penalty from his Final Ability for each additional attack he makes during the Combat Turn.
So, you have 1 attack until 100. 2 until 200. 3 until 300. If you think of your Attack value as a 3-digit number (080, 115, 440) then you have additional attack potential up to that leading number. At 080 you have 0 more attacks than the 1 (for a total of 1). At 440 you have 4 more (for a total of 5). The thing to note is that since you declare actions at the start of your turn, including the number of attacks, your penalty is set then, for all your attacks and counterattacks you might use.

Anyways, I hope that clarifies some things. Anima is a frustrating hole, but we love it anyways.
Devil's Advocate Extraordinaire.
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Banthor
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Banthor » 20 May 2018 17:57

What Tyr said also.

I'm working on Base book stuff unfortunately. As much supplemental pdfs as I have, a fair number of Core Exxet details still elude me. Honestly, -80 on Absorb Hits doesn't sound all too bad anyways as it can be decided after they see what the opponent got as an attack (at least I believe this is the case).

*sigh maybe I'll do a full and proper translation of Core Exxet if I can find a copy after I'm done with Gaia Volume 2.
Gaia Volume 2 translation progress report : It's done. Want to cry in a blanket burrito now.
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Tyr Hawk
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Tyr Hawk » 20 May 2018 18:22

Banthor escribió:
20 May 2018 17:57
as it can be decided after they see what the opponent got as an attack (at least I believe this is the case).
It is. :)
Banthor escribió: *sigh maybe I'll do a full and proper translation of Core Exxet if I can find a copy after I'm done with Gaia Volume 2.
As for this... BEHOLD!

Or you can use the partial fan trasnlations of the changes (because most of the system is exactly the same except for a few things, like this one here. It's not perfect, and doesn't have everything, but it has a lot and it's better than starting from scratch.
Devil's Advocate Extraordinaire.
"Just because I can argue for it, doesn't mean I agree with it."
This signature not intended as medical advice.
Banthor
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Banthor » 20 May 2018 19:13

Tyr Hawk escribió:
20 May 2018 18:22
Banthor escribió:
20 May 2018 17:57
as it can be decided after they see what the opponent got as an attack (at least I believe this is the case).
It is. :)
Banthor escribió: *sigh maybe I'll do a full and proper translation of Core Exxet if I can find a copy after I'm done with Gaia Volume 2.
As for this... BEHOLD!

Or you can use the partial fan trasnlations of the changes (because most of the system is exactly the same except for a few things, like this one here. It's not perfect, and doesn't have everything, but it has a lot and it's better than starting from scratch.
Thank you very much sir. That will be a ways off as I'll be translating Gaia 2 for awhile (I am not bilingual in any way, just a determined, fast typer). The main target is to at least get the territories of the New Continent in order, but that in itself is one nasty knot to untangle. Not to mention the amount of hyperlinking, general formatting, and quality-of-life changes I've resolved to do. A very nice person shared a good starting point in these forums, but it looks almost nothing like the original document now.
Gaia Volume 2 translation progress report : It's done. Want to cry in a blanket burrito now.
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Sharpandpointies
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Sharpandpointies » 01 Jun 2018 18:52

One thing to remember is that Anima doesn't simply assume that a character that knows four 'martial arts' actually knows Taiji, Kung Fu, Aikido, and TKD. That character may instead know '9 Lotus Blossoms', a completely fictional martial art that uses the bonuses for those four martial arts. An aggregate, really.

Recall also that the English book has really crappy translation, and the rules themselves can be vague at times.

Does it make sense to disallow a Tao with Four Martial Arts blended into One (or, heck, even 'he actually DOES know four martial arts, TKD Aikido, etc), who has THEN spent more of his precious Combat DP, not to use the weapons he has purchased with his aggregate martial art bonuses?

I would say no.

This also dovetails with my own personal experience where I've been studying martial arts for about 30 years now. I've picked up Arnis (9 years), various Kung Fu stuff with associated weapons (12 years), and a variety of other chinese weapons with internal styles (about 10 years). When I use a knife (Arnis), do I suddenly lose all of the experience and training I gained with the other styles? Nope. Whatever I've learned with them has helped improve my own knowledge of how to use a knife. Similarly, my work with Arnis HAS affected - for the better - my use of the Jian.

Someone putting points into buying weapons for a Tao is already losing a lot of what a Tao has when they use that weapon - that is, the tremendous benefit of chaining together the special abilities that each martial art gives.

I wouldn't hammer them down further by denying them their full attack/defend.

Mileage, it may vary.
Última edición por Sharpandpointies el 02 Jun 2018 20:36, editado 1 vez en total.
"But something like Guy-With-A-Zombie being saved by Bob the Zombie getting in the way while I Will Always Love You plays in the background... That I would not allow."
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Sharpandpointies
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Sharpandpointies » 01 Jun 2018 18:54

Also agree with the Weapon Master thing. Weapon Masters should be dumping tons into Armor, Life Points, and Absorbing Hits. That, or maxing the crap out of their Attack/Defend and using shields. Sure, it makes them slow, but then...Parry, Counterattack.
"But something like Guy-With-A-Zombie being saved by Bob the Zombie getting in the way while I Will Always Love You plays in the background... That I would not allow."
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lizvne
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por lizvne » 01 Jun 2018 22:38

I don't want to sound rude, but are "frustrating rules" in original post do not exist at all and are product of poorly read rules?

As for WM, unless WM in question dumped his Init (or trolled by GM with one way or another top init builds), WM works in two ways:
1. Loose init, receive attack, counter if you succeed, get pat on back from team if you fail (as you basically covered them).
2. Declare Absorbing, loose init, get hit (allow armour to absorb 90% damage), act anyway.

As for really disheartening rules:
1. No Armour having Ele AT more than 2, with top Armours having zero. It makes Electricity number 1 choice for Elemental Attack power and discourages players from using armour, as in most appropriate (sarcasm) moment armoured character finds himself basically naked against the attack.
2. Damage Resistance + number of rules like Electricity damage (again). It is cool when your team need something to chop down, but any attempt to make challenging encounter ends in.. well, nothing. Players also will run from any Damage Resistance ability unless they will be treated friendly by GM both in reading and opponent's tactics.
3. Flight Rules starting from Core Exxet. Good for low level, terribly outdated for even mid level. Psychics are the only ones flying around, really?..
4. Weapon Tables and ambidexterity. My god, same mess as DnD. Bucklers not requiring hand to use, two-handed swords as main striking weapon (halberds and warhammers? the reason of their existence is unknown), bows as kings of ranged combat (crossbows are terribly slower and not much better everywhere else, firearms basically shoot-once), ambidexterity doubling combat potential over one-handed fighting (yeah, that's how it works in real life! And it is balanced!).
5. Mandatory See Supernatural. No comments.
6. Broken Resistances system. Basically, Crea-Wizard and Psychic buffer are mandatory unless you want to have only your defence between "10% to succeed or suck" effect.
7. Psychic rules. Mostly disheartening for GM. Add one advantage and character can spam his Lv 1 and 2 powers infinitely, ignoring fumbles.
8. Mandatory effects and protections requiting specific build routes.
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Banthor
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Re: Let's talk about the rules that can frustrate people.

Mensaje por Banthor » 02 Jun 2018 01:36

lizvne escribió:
01 Jun 2018 22:38
I don't want to sound rude, but are "frustrating rules" in original post do not exist at all and are product of poorly read rules?

As for WM, unless WM in question dumped his Init (or trolled by GM with one way or another top init builds), WM works in two ways:
1. Loose init, receive attack, counter if you succeed, get pat on back from team if you fail (as you basically covered them).
2. Declare Absorbing, loose init, get hit (allow armour to absorb 90% damage), act anyway.

As for really disheartening rules:
1. No Armour having Ele AT more than 2, with top Armours having zero. It makes Electricity number 1 choice for Elemental Attack power and discourages players from using armour, as in most appropriate (sarcasm) moment armoured character finds himself basically naked against the attack.
2. Damage Resistance + number of rules like Electricity damage (again). It is cool when your team need something to chop down, but any attempt to make challenging encounter ends in.. well, nothing. Players also will run from any Damage Resistance ability unless they will be treated friendly by GM both in reading and opponent's tactics.
3. Flight Rules starting from Core Exxet. Good for low level, terribly outdated for even mid level. Psychics are the only ones flying around, really?..
4. Weapon Tables and ambidexterity. My god, same mess as DnD. Bucklers not requiring hand to use, two-handed swords as main striking weapon (halberds and warhammers? the reason of their existence is unknown), bows as kings of ranged combat (crossbows are terribly slower and not much better everywhere else, firearms basically shoot-once), ambidexterity doubling combat potential over one-handed fighting (yeah, that's how it works in real life! And it is balanced!).
5. Mandatory See Supernatural. No comments.
6. Broken Resistances system. Basically, Crea-Wizard and Psychic buffer are mandatory unless you want to have only your defence between "10% to succeed or suck" effect.
7. Psychic rules. Mostly disheartening for GM. Add one advantage and character can spam his Lv 1 and 2 powers infinitely, ignoring fumbles.
8. Mandatory effects and protections requiting specific build routes.

1) Yeah, its weird given that it isn't like every armor is metal, as there's ghestal wood, leather, etc. Maybe more care should have went into how material affects the attributes on items.
2) Electricity effects are dumb, but I generally frown upon "free" all-action penalties. I don't think I'd ever let someone use a specific type of Darkness Sheele after running some test combats and realizing that its Delta Obscuritas attack can single-handedly end encounters because its overloaded to hell (Energy i think, MR check = to damage X 2, with substantial All-Action penalty). It has a somewhat pricey zeon cost, but if it doesn't kill the monster it took it out of the fight regardless.
3) I'll take your word for it. As a fan of Slayers I like the idea of "yeah we can fly, but its only for the occasional convenience).
4) Yeah, but I find dual wielding in this game better than 3.5 DnD where dual-wielding is a guaranteed doubling of a player's combat power (Oh I have 3 attacks, well now I get 3 more).
5) Eh, at this point I view See Supernatural as "See Spirits", as I felt it made more sense because the only spells and creatures you couldn't see were the Spiritual ones anyways. Yeah there's more to it than that, but for the sake of convenience its just better as mostly "fluff" but occasionally useful.
6) Not sure what to think of resistances. I like them but there doesn't appear to be a good scaling for them versus the checks themselves.
7) I find psychics "okay" but not interesting. There's a lot of different things you can do with a sword, but for most of the psychic powers you're only doing the "one thing" some 20 times in a row. If psychic powers get overhauled in 2nd edition like they said, I want them to allow for more diverse tactics. That said, the current psychic powers seem to have been designed with the idea that the players wouldn't be playing in such a way as to avoid fumbles. It seems they wanted a higher risk, higher reward set of powers than the others available but had no way to enforce the risk. Honestly, these could have probably worked better by being a more detailed version of how the Natural Power magic school works.
8) Yeah, pretty much. Not a fan of needing psychic or magic shields or cringing picking up dodge on a wizard. I wonder if projections could just act as a defense that doesn't get counters (maybe with base damage of the attack taken as zeon), and then the actual shield spells would merely add effects and protect you from taking damage to your zeon. Complicated, but just a thought.

Adding in some of my own.

Poorly explained stuff. Lightning Blade...bleh (Infinite Attacks also). You have some spells and abilities tell you a special interaction with some other specific effect, BUT at the same time have things listed that can't be bothered to tell you what the damage type is.

Predetermined...anything (this fits in with 9, but I'm calling this one out specifically). I get the general idea of this, but unless this is explained in Core Exxet I can't find a single thing that gives an proper example of the In-and-Outs of how this is supposed to go. I've heard people say that it effectively replaced your die result with the value, but as with the weirdness that was the Incarnation + Invocation (or spell) issue with summoners there are bizarre mechanical holes. I think the way I as a GM ruled it, was that it effectively replaces the "Final *insert*" value on your character sheet and you don't roll for that ability, with relevant penalties and modifiers still applying.

Weapon Modules are brutally costed. I feel like many of these should be down to around 30 DP instead of 50. This isn't about Weapon Masters, just about how there's a rather significant DP cost to doing something thematic with the weapons you wield when it has few combat implications. I mean heaven forbid the swashbuckler wants to use a saber with a flintlock, and the occasional harpoon.

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Gaia Volume 2 translation progress report : It's done. Want to cry in a blanket burrito now.
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